Why does anyone need to _predict_ the performance when you can _measure_ it with a profiler?

I think that Pinku misses a few important points. The first is this: 'almabench' was already optimized (for C++), and probably better code than most C++ programmers can manage. So good lisp hackers and good C++ hackers can produce similarly performing code for the same task. All this means is that the language is not constraining you (as some might claim).

More importantly: no kind of python coder can achieve this sort of performance (within the language), but most couldn't do it while resorting to C, either. The language constrains you, but allows an 'easy' out --- write it in another language. This does not make your python programmer an expert C progammer, magically.

Most importantly: it is far too easy to get hung up on optimization. There are only two valid reasons for worrying about this. Either the code is inherently expensive (i.e. unoptimized version will take 6 months to complete, optimized version will take a few days), or it is to be run an awflu lot of times. Neither of these scenarios is an issue for almost all programmers, almost all of the time. If a bit of code is actually important enough to worry about this, you ought to be able to find (or create) someone competent to write it.

Now the converse problem, truly *bad* performance is almost always an algorithm issue. And a powerful language like lisp does allow you more rope this way --- it is easy to do things in lisp that are almost inconcievable in 'c' (notwithstanding the 10th law). However, the fact that a lot of programmers are pretty ignorant of fundamental CS and the basic properties of there own programs is not a *language* issue.

"More computing sins are committed in the name of efficiency (without necessarily achieving it) than for any other single reason - including stupidity."
W.A. Wulf

Truly this applies most to choosing the language to write a program in, judging by the programs on my computer.

On the "it would be nice if Lisp could be integrated with C as easily as Python can" front:

Someone here at Franz is hacking the latest SWIG to add ACL generation of interfaces. So, it will be as easy as Python, if there is a SWIG definition for the library. I think the work will be done in a few weeks, and we'll make it available as soon as it is.

A nice and fast way to make Lisp as easily integrable with C/C++ as Python (or more precisely, as Pyste, http://www.boost.org/libs/python/pyste/ ) is to use gccxml ( http://www.gccxml.org/ ) to parse the C/C++ headers to an equivalent XML, and then with Lisp parse that XML (easy) using that information to generate UFFI bindings. This can be extended to C++ getting the mangled symbols with a pipe to "nm" or using the same algorithm as in gcc to get them. I think that for an experienced Lisp programmer this can be an one or two weekends project. GCCXML makes SWIG obsolete (Pyste uses GCCXML).

Kevin's comment on integration with C via SWIG is good news. The reason C integration is important is because most folks writing high-perf code will be using optimized libraries, rather than starting from scratch. Since the Lisp compilers did such a great job with C-like Lisp, perhaps someone can cook up a DSL which is a subset of Lisp suited to generating fast code. Scheme48's PreScheme is a nice start. Furthermore, one could slap some macros around this DSL to create another DSL suitable for array-processing code, similar to Sisal or ZPL. The Lisp compilers might need extensions to support SIMD instructions. Finally, one might need support for pinning large arrays in GC memory. Forgive me if all this is already provided, I'm too lazy to check the docs.

A dynamic language with very good C integration is goo. You can run the environment such that any form you type in (or load) is automatically compiled to c, then loaded as a .so. You can also embed C code inside your goo code (and can call back into goo from C).

Even if the language isn't useful for you, you can still mine its implementation docs for ideas.

(Either MT isn't letting me include hrefs or I'm doing something wrong; either way, http://www.googoogaga.org/)

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